How many universes are there in the Tenchi Muyo verse?

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    fang2
    Participant
    When the Chousin were over the dimensions, how many universes were in each of the 22 dimensions?
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      Yukinojo
      Participant
      none

      fang2 wrote:

      When the Chousin were over the dimensions, how many universes were in each of the 22 dimensions?

      okay, are you referencing OVA 3 or talking about the entire franchise in general? Because OVA 3 isn’t really explained well and you need to really need to look at it closely to guess at things. If it’s the franchise in general, then it’s a little complicated because it’s different sometimes, like: OVA continuity, Universe Continuity, novel, manga, Ai Continuity, and each have different people in charge of it.

      fang2
      Participant
      Yeah the OVA 3. The 22 dimensions that the D’s are overlooking.
      jgzinv
      Member
      That’s a bit impossible to answer, you’re talking about all of space, in dimensions through the third and beyond, and we don’t even know how many total universes are in our own 3rd dimension.

      Now if you’re referring to the alternate realities that make up the OVA, and it’s connected spin offs, we can get a fair view of that. But those are just alternate (living next door) dimensions all in the 3rd dimensional space.

      fang2
      Participant
      Was it stated how many dimensions were there?
      And what’s the difference,in that case,between a dimension and a universe?

      I find that sometimes the two are used to mean the same or similiar thing.

      fang2
      Participant
      The reason why I am asking this is because this wiki states the Chousin as being hyperversal+

      http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/The_Choushin

      jgzinv
      Member
      I think you’re already going in circles there, clearly this conversation has been had there.

      Antvasima is also a person who’s been in the Tenchi community for many years as well.

      I wouldn’t trust any wiki, or any group of people dedicated to debating fictional character power battles endlessly.

      It’s quite pointless.

      Keep in mind that we’re talking about Tokimi’s group of beings that manage the multi dimensional space.

      3D would mean 3 Dimensions. 4D 4 dimensions, and so on. Not that 3D manages 1 dimension.

      They stack, so a 22D manages 22 dimensions, not 1 dimension. 22D manages 21D, 21D manages 20D, and so on down the chain of employment.

      The way I look at things is like a layer cake.

      Each layer of the cake is composed of one “reality” in which for all those beings in that layer, that is all of existence to them. That is their world, universe, galaxy, and so on. In this space, you can have pocket dimensions or essentially folds/wormholes that create a connection between points, or create containers outside of regular space.

      Think of Washu, her lab is 3 dimensional in nature, but she can create connection points to other locations via doorway, and her lab isn’t physically in the same space as the house broom closet. It’s it’s own pocket zone.

      Now, back to the cake.

      All that above is contained in a single layer of cake. Now you have another layer of cake above and below “layer 0”. In each of the layers beside layer 0, something changes. Maybe someone saves something in layer – 1 and they throw it away in layer + 1. This is a difference. Like the butterfly effect, each and every change builds on it self creating a infinite number of differences and changes.

      Now consider that for every change, and every resulting change, and so on, there is another layer of cake.

      This is how alternate reality spin offs, like Dual, like Photon, like Geminar, are all handled. We’re seeing the characters either travel between the layers, or we’re seeing a similar but unique layer that is not the original.

      The Chousin, and by extension kami-Tenchi, are not in the cake, they are not of a layer. They created the cake. They are outside the cake entirely, and cannot be defined by the cake layers, except when they choose to have an avatar (Washu’s form, Sasami, Chibi Tokimi, Tenchi) that is bound in that dimensional space unique to that layer in the cake. Their real body, or whatever you could call it as a form, has never been accurately shown, as we couldn’t even perceive it.

      So when Tenchi unleashes his kami power, because he’s tapped into it, but has no concept of how to control it (after all he’s a 3 dimensional avatar) – it essentially is like setting off a grenade in your layer cake. The barriers are blown apart and everything’s a messy blend.

      Yukinojo
      Participant
      none
      I think this thread could do with a re-name, because it’s actually confusing of what you’re think you are going to talk about and what you’re really talking about. The current name is “How many universes are there in the Tenchi Muyo verse” sounds like you’re talking about Tenchi Muyo in it’s entirety, not just OVA 3.
      Almael
      Member
      As JGZinv has pointed out you could as well use n! (n factorial).

      For a multiverse each n is an infinity.

      Ukinojo92 wrote:

      I think this thread could do with a re-name, because it’s actually confusing of what you’re think you are going to talk about and what you’re really talking about. The current name is “How many universes are there in the Tenchi Muyo verse” sounds like you’re talking about Tenchi Muyo in it’s entirety, not just OVA 3.

      I agree.

      It would make more sense also if we could have a brief definition of what a dimension is against what a universe is,as I still am confused.

      btw: FWIW: it would seem to me that OVA 1 and 2 would be the primary Universe from which all the others would be alternate versions of.

      Almael
      Member
      From a real world point of view (simplified):

      math – a dimension is a parameter in a parametric equation or a single column matrix

      physics – a dimension is an attribute

      Depending on string/M-Theory the universe has 10 dimensions (or more). The number of all attributes that has effects in our world. That’s why we have taken them into account.

      For all practical purposes however the universe we live in and can see and experience is 4D only.

      In 5D we would see numerous 4D universes that are slightly different e.g. you wearing different clothes.

      In 6D we would see numerous 5D universes with the same beginning e.g. big bang and we see them placed here and there.

      In 7D we would see numerous 6D universes that have a slightly different beginning.

      In 8D we would see numerous (infinite) 7D universes placed as branches of possibilities.

      In 9D we would see numerous 8D universes with a different starting condition e.g. physical laws.

      In 10D we would see numerous 9D universes that are slightly different e.g. a multiverse.

      There may be are higher dimensions but this is far beyond human comprehension and imagination.

      A 11D universes would be a multiverse of multiverses and we see them placed here and there.

      So for us simple minded TV audiences the 4D universe is all that matters and the 5D is the multiverse.

      That said any Tenchi episode could be a different universe or

      any member of the Tenchi family tree for that matter. 😆

      Yukinojo
      Participant
      none

      Almael wrote:

      So for us simple minded TV audiences the 4D universe is all that matters and the 5D is the multiverse.That said any Tenchi episode could be a different universe or any member of the Tenchi family tree for that matter.

      I think Space Dandy would fit that description better, especially the second season.

      jgzinv
      Member
      <<< Higher Plane of Existence >>> (Chousin / Kami Tenchi)

      [[[[[[Every Alternate Reality “Infinite Multiverses”]]]]] (((((((((((Multiverse Including All Universes Below))))))))))

      >>>> 22D Presides Over 22nd and 21st Universal Layers

      (( All content of the 22nd Layer – Universe/Galaxies/Etc Here ))

      >>>>>> 21D Presides Over 21st and 20th Universal Layers

      (( All content of the 21st Layer – Universe/Galaxies/Etc Here ))

      >>>>>>>>> 20D Presides Over 20th and 19th Universal Layers

      (( All content of the 20th Layer – Universe/Galaxies/Etc Here ))

      >>>>>>>>>>>>> 19D Presides Over 19th and 18th Universal Layers

      (( All content of the 19th Layer – Universe/Galaxies/Etc Here ))

      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 18D Presides Over 18thand 17th Universal Layers

      (( All content of the 18th Layer – Universe/Galaxies/Etc Here ))

      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 17D Presides Over 17th and 16th Universal Layers

      (( All content of the 17th Layer – Universe/Galaxies/Etc Here ))

      ~~~~~~~ Skipping Down Some ~~~~~~~

      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4D Presides Over 4th and 3rd Universal Layers

      (( All content of the 4th Layer – Universe/Galaxies/Etc Here ))

      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3D Presides Over 3rd and 2nd Universal Layers

      (( All content of the 3rd Layer – Universe/Galaxies/Etc Here ))

      This is us, the Tenchi household as we are exposed to it for the majority of the series.

      Consider that above as a “group” under the title of a single “Multiverse”

      Now, imagine that for every change, decision, whatever infinitesimally small difference, there

      are other Multiverses that split off, and continue to branch off infinitely. This is where you get alternate

      universes or “parallel worlds.”

      My justification for putting alternate realities above a Universal Layer, is that the Directors themselves, as well

      as the layer, and it’s sub layer, are directly affected by the events happening within the layer the Director resides in.

      As such the entire “tree” so to speak is subject to the butterfly theory.

      Dimension when used appropriately, as Almael was describing, is a measure or description of location in space.

      Basically like coordinates. Universe as a term, applies to everything within all of space that we can discern. This could

      be called our “reality” or existence. Everything we observe or can know, contained within a space.

      Parallel worlds then, should be thought of as describing location when they are called Alternate Dimensions.

      This is like describing radio stations. This station is 106.9, and this station is 107.1, they are similar, may contain the

      same or similar content. Provided you have a tuner (travel device) you can move from station (dimension) to another.

      A parallel world however, is physically, a separate Multiverse of it’s own. So if you were to tell a travel agent you wanted

      to travel to the OVA Multiverse, she would book you travel to that reality, citing a specific dimensional address, necessary to get you to the right multiverse, right layer, right place, time, planet, location, etc.

      Clear as mud? wth2

      Good, now go watch, Dual, Stein’s Gate, and then read a few string theory books and get back to me.

      woooo1

      fang2
      Participant
      Hey I have another question, at the end of Saint knight’s tale, who were those beings who appeared?
      ChaudSept
      Member
      We don’t know for sure hehe. Though it is most likely the Chousins talking to each other. Probably Tokimi to Washu in my opinion, or maybe all three of them.

      We do now for sure that the Chousins (At least Tokimi) are responsable for Kenshi getting sent to Geminar.

      http://tenchiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=1181#p22072” class=”bbcode_url”>http://tenchiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=1181#p22072

      But after thinking about this, it could be Rea, her mother, talking too… mhmh..

      jgzinv
      Member
      Well Rea was certainly involved, that was also covered in a doujin.
      Yukinojo
      Participant
      none
      In the Kajishima-Tenchi, there is a lot of instances of universes and dimension crossing, but few in the Negishi-Tenchi. It really depends on how deep you want to go into universe and dimensions of Tenchi, just a overview or a analysis of each one.
      I now know how Chief O’Brien felt in that episode of Deep Space Nine when he met his

      self from the future.

      In other words all this talk of dimensions and alternate realities is giving me a headache.

      Yukinojo
      Participant
      none

      mitsuki lover wrote:

      I now know how Chief O’Brien felt in that episode of Deep Space Nine when he met hisself from the future.In other words all this talk of dimensions and alternate realities is giving me a headache.

      Time travel is different from dimensions and alternate realities. Time travel is the when and where of a point in space and time in a universe. Dimensions is layers of existence in the universe, altered realities come from changing something from the past or going to another version of a universe.

      Almael
      Member
      Good point on the butterfly effect, JGZinv.

      Ukinojo92 wrote:


      Time travel is different from dimensions and alternate realities. Time travel is the when and where of a point in space and time in a universe. Dimensions is layers of existence in the universe, altered realities come from changing something from the past or going to another version of a universe.

      Well, time travel is irrelevant to 5D+. Starting in one of the higher dimensions time, alternate realities etc. it’s all one lower dimension. For those higher beings it makes no difference. It’s just us lower than bugs that it matters.

      some examples are:

      quantum mystery: where a photon exists as a wave and particle; it might be able to go back in time

      WIMPs: could be some higher dimensional “matter” of which we only experience its gravity.

      Btw.

      electron quantum tunneling mystery solved!

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150527103112.htm

      I forget but didn’t you say Tenchi was 4D Almael? Just wanted to clarify that.

      Any way FWIW department:

      I think the Tenchiverse might be divided in the following way:

      1.OVA 1 and 2 or Tenchi Prime

      2.Universe this would also include anything related to it such as the movies and

      Dual and War on Geminar don’t know whether or not to put El Hazard*

      here as well if not then:

      3.El Hazard

      4.Pretty Sasami and all variations

      5.Ai Tenchi Moyu

      6.The manga.

      At least that would be my view of things for now.

      *Does it take place in the Universe continuum or a separate one is what I’m trying to get at.

      jgzinv
      Member
      Dual and Geminar have nothing to do with Universe, they are part of the OVA.

      Universe pertains to TMIL 1 and TMIL 2 and Eternal Memory.

      El Hazard, has a lot of references to Pretty Sammy, as does Dual, so there might be something there, but it’s thin.

      susano
      Member
      According to some articles, Dual is considered to part of the OVA Universe. Dual is set in four different universes. The first universe was the one where the alien artifact was found on a construction site. The next two universes are the ones which were form as a result of the first universe being split. In the first universe, the alien artifact was thrown away into a garage container. The second universe is a result of the alien artifact was found and study. The fourth universe is a creation when the split universes where reunited.. Because of Linv looking like GXP’s Idol, it is assumed that the fourth Dual Universe is in the OVA one.
      jgzinv
      Member

      susano wrote:

      In the first universe, the alien artifact was thrown away into a garage container. The second universe is a result of the alien artifact was found and study. The fourth universe is a creation when the split universes where reunited.. Because of Linv looking like GXP’s Idol, it is assumed that the fourth Dual Universe is in the OVA one.

      Please don’t cite Wiki’s, it makes Dee cry.

      The second universe as listed in the quote, is kinda sorta right in a broad sense but we have no information to

      suggest it was the plate found at the construction site that was studied, ever. Ken Sanada slipped into the saucer and copied data that led him to be able to create incomplete copies of the “Original” which eventually became the core robots and core unit. Rara slipped in and had a chance to study it longer, and got the coordinates for the battleship, and had a treasure trove of artifacts at his disposal.

      The 4th universe as listed, while for the sake of narrative you could say they were merged, but what we’ve questioned for years is if that’s even possible. Zinv himself doesn’t demonstrate, nor by the values of what we know of light hawk wings, a power capable of merging two distinct entire universes together. That’s a kami/chousin level ability.

      Thus, unless by way of Zinv Tsunami decided to interfere, and isn’t mentioned – it makes more sense to say we merely are seeing yet another of the many parallel universes in the “cake” as I described above, where everyone did survive, and has similar memories.

      Alternatively, if it was only planet earth that was affected by the convergence, then it would be possible for Zinv to theoretically have the power to merge them. After all various levels of trees have the capability to create a environment inside the core unit, as well as destroy a planet. So that remains plausible, just not an entire universe.

      The fourth Dual universe as well, shows hardly any ties with the OVA universe on it’s own. It shows ties with Pretty Sammy both in the special OAV ep, and in the DVD and LD book crossovers. The ties it does have, are counterparts of their OVA universe dopplegagers. ie Kazuki Yotsuga of the GXP. Mitsuki Ranada and Ken of the GXP mainframe.

      Now connect the dots. GXP’s Idol is not the same as Zinv, there’s several body differences. On inspection during the meeting with the royals, it was said Funaho inquired of Tsunami and she had given “two” seeds to a interstellar traveler

      many years ago. The Idol is one such seed, the other seed no one knew where it went.

      Pretty obvious that the other seed is Zinv, it got “lost” because it ended up in a parallel universe.

      fang2
      Participant
      Do you guys think there will be another OVA?
      Nobuyuki
      Participant
      Always possible.

      If it happens, “YAY!”

      ChaudSept
      Member
      I suggest you check out this thread so you know what Kajishima has to say about the next OVA.

      Maybe read that thread if you want to see some people’s little opinions about the future of Tenchi Muyo!

      I think most people would prefer something that would make them forget OVA 3, but that is beside the point.

      And I understand where we get 3 separate universes for Dual but where does #4 fit in precisely?

      That one confuses me.

      Also wasn’t there some kind of chart that showed how Dual and El Hazard both

      fit in in the Grand Scheme of Things ™?

      btw: When talking about the combined Universes at the end of Dual! episode 13 it should be remembered that it was all MS’ fault! A fact that even Ken and Akane apparently didn’t know as

      they have their conversation at the beginning of the OVA that they think Kazuki was responsible. iloveit1

      jgzinv
      Member
      Technically it was neither of their faults. You can’t program a universe through a ball shaped lever indirectly touching your butt. Besides that, Jinbu doesn’t respond to Mitsuki, she isn’t bonded to it, Kazuki is.

      She merely set off the bomb that blew him up.

      You have to watch Dual realizing that everything that is said, is from the perspective of a in universe, person, human, on the ground, with no access to the knowledge or vocabulary as it applies to the overall Tenchi-verse. Dee and Kumu are effectively the only ones that know anything accurately in the grand scheme of things.

      Dual Universe “dimension” A is where we’re introduced to Masaki Yotsuga at the construction site.

      For ease of thought, we’ll say the universe MY pitches the bonding plate away in, remains Universe A.

      The universe that MY keeps the bonding plate, is Universe B.

      Universe B is shown to be Kazuki and MitsukiS’s reality until they are both teleported to Universe C via the basement experiment. Universe C is the world that Kazuki has had visions of for so long, that includes mech fights.

      Universe D is either a very similar reality to B/C, or a combination world (as discussed before) which is where we see

      Kumu arrive in a shipping box and Jinbu arrive after being found underwater.

      Yukinojo
      Participant
      none
      Okay, this thread is kinda getting confusing. At first it was talking about one series and what dimensions it was connected to. Now it’s an analysis of the dimensions, what’s it’s connected to, and what it has inside it. Someone needs to put in a chart to make it easier to understand, everyone likes visuals.
      That’s what I was saying earlier when I asked about the chart that someone did. At least it can’t be as confusing as the whole Masaki Family Tree.
      jgzinv
      Member
      Welp open up MS (haha funny) Paint and get to graphing.
      Welp it would have to still start with the first two OVAs and show how everything else connects back to them.
      fang2
      Participant
      Does this scan mean that the Chousin are beyond dimensions or beyond existence?

      http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140519234320/anime-characters-fight/ru/images/5/59/Chous1.png" />

      Well if they’re technically Goddesses,then I guess it would.
      Yukinojo
      Participant
      none

      mitsuki lover wrote:

      Well if they’re technically Goddesses,then I guess it would.

      If you really go technical, goddess is a title, not a state of being or designation of species. It is something or someone being called a god or goddess because: they are powerful or have done something profoundly amazing. Example:

      http://41.media.tumblr.com/78baf905fe80193a079c0ffd2f4c0c57/tumblr_mpl7ukTa5D1s6sru9o1_500.jpg" />

      fang2 wrote:

      Does this scan mean that the Chousin are beyond dimensions or beyond existence?

      http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140519234320/anime-characters-fight/ru/images/5/59/Chous1.png" />

      They might be beings that perceive enough to understand a many things and know to create universes that can bridge to other universes and expand influence and reach. And dimensions and existence is relative when talking about higher existences, their is a certain level of existences we can understand, and their is a certain level of existences they can understand.

      I think a good question here is were they created by the Tenchi-Kami or were they self-existing?
      Yukinojo
      Participant
      none

      mitsuki lover wrote:

      I think a good question here is were they created by the Tenchi-Kami or were they self-existing?

      That was the entire plot for Kajishima’s continuity of OVA 3, Goddesses trying to answer that question, It was said in ep 19 or ep 6 of OVA 3 during the conversation with them.

      Really?

      Well I guess that’s because I have never seen OVA 3. Of course we are pretty much getting into

      metaphysical area here with such questions. I think it’s the Tenchi equivalent of the whole

      Free Will vs. Predestination debate.

      Yukinojo
      Participant
      none

      mitsuki lover wrote:

      Well I guess that’s because I have never seen OVA 3.

      umm, yeah just don’t if you want to keep happy memories of Tenchi alive. OVA 3 did not have Buchard as Ryoko, and it has holes in the story that are not explained unless you read the doujins. So as curious as you might be, and loyal as a fan, don’t watch if you still want to be a fan. Trying not to be bad, but OVA 3 is where people lost faith in Tenchi.

      So I have heard.
      jgzinv
      Member
      Technically it might be GXP where they lost faith. OVA 3 just drove the nail straight through the skull.
      Yukinojo
      Participant
      none

      JGZinv wrote:

      Technically it might be GXP where they lost faith. OVA 3 just drove the nail straight through the skull.

      Yeah, but OVA 3 was suppose to be the continuation of the awesome series from OVA 1&2. Then we saw it, and got a lot things we didn’t like (hint: Noike) and it is considered canon to the story. That’s GXP, however we anticipated OVA 3 for a long time, and then we get a multiverse and goddess plot device that doesn’t get explained well. Which is now what we are discussing to make it make sense.

      If only it was as easy to explain away like J.J.Abram’s hatred for Star Trek, but unfortunately in this case it’s the original creator.
      Yukinojo
      Participant
      none

      mitsuki lover wrote:

      If only it was as easy to explain away like J.J.Abram’s hatred for Star Trek, but unfortunately in this case it’s the original creator.

      The problem with OVA 3 was Kajishima wanted to move on and so he did a shabby job of it in order to satisfy everyone as quickly as he could.

      Oh like he was doing this: sakuyafinger1 to fandom?
      Yukinojo
      Participant
      none

      mitsuki lover wrote:

      Oh like he was doing this: sakuyafinger1 to fandom?

      No he was just being difficult and himself, though this discussion should be moved to the OVA3/GXP thread, I think.

      Probably since we have strayed from the main question.
      Beyonder
      Member
      22 Infinite Dimensional Universes…..so no multiverse just Alt. Universes.
      Yukinojo
      Participant
      none

      Beyonder wrote:

      22 Infinite Dimensional Universes…..so no multiverse just Alt. Universes.

      This thread is just getting confusing, what was the original point? Was it finding out how many layers of existences of the universe in the OVA’s? or how many Universes in a layer of existence in OVA’s? Feels like the thread is going in circles. Rename please and specify topic

      WisperG
      Member

      Ukinojo92 wrote:

      Beyonder wrote:

      22 Infinite Dimensional Universes…..so no multiverse just Alt. Universes.

      This thread is just getting confusing, what was the original point? Was it finding out how many layers of existences of the universe in the OVA’s? or how many Universes in a layer of existence in OVA’s? Feels like the thread is going in circles. Rename please and specify topic

      I’m not even sure anymore. Is there even an answer to these questions? It’s seems like a rather arbitrary techno-babble thing they threw in. These 22 universes are barely referenced beyond a few lines anyways, right?

      Also, in response to Beyonder’s comment, a multiverse is made up of alternate universes. It’s literally the same thing. Those 22 universes could comprise a multiverse.

      A good example would be DC’s Crisis On Infinite Earths where familiar characters exist on

      different alternative worlds creating an even more confusing multiverse than the one in Tenchi.

      Though I am confused again as to whether we’re just talking Tenchi or also related shows like

      Dual and El Hazard which each have their own multiverses or parallel worlds.

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